Leading with Authenticity and Pivoting with Purpose with Jumoke K. Dada (Podcast & Transcript)

“Come to the front, be seen, be heard. Let it be known. This is who you are…. We need to be seen. We need the generations coming behind us to see us, to see that we exist.” - Jumoke K. Dada

Jumoke Dada is a dynamic, visionary, and technology leader whose sweet spot lies at the intersection of innovation, entrepreneurship, security, and education. With over 15 years of experience in corporate IT, and as the owner of Signature Red, she provides technology consulting services and has created platforms for women in tech.

Two of her creations include the Tech Women Network, an online community and career development platform for diverse technical women, and the HUE Tech Summit for Women of Color Technologists. Additionally, she's an international speaker and former tech contributor to Forbes. Jumoke holds a Master's in Cybersecurity from Georgia Tech.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Authenticity and overcoming cultural norms 

• The importance and joy of building community

• Pivotal moments that pushed her out of her comfort zone

• Her decision to pursue a Master’s degree in Cybersecurity

• Setting boundaries and self-care 

• Becoming an international public speaker 
  

Transcript has been edited for clarity.

Karen Ko: Hey there. Welcome to Engineer Your Career, a podcast brought to you by WEST, a learning community empowering women technologists through mentorship. Join us as we hear from inspiring women tech leaders who are challenging stereotypes and paving the way for future generations. We hope their career journeys inspire you with new ideas to engineer your career. Let's get started.

Heidi Williams: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Engineer Your Career. I am super excited today that we are going to be talking to Jumoke Dada. She is a dynamic, visionary, and technology leader whose sweet spot lies at the intersection of innovation, entrepreneurship, security, and education.

With over 15 years of experience in corporate IT, and as the owner of Signature Red, she provides technology consulting services and has created platforms for women in tech. Two of her creations include the Tech Women Network, an online platform for diverse technical women and the HUE Tech Summit for women of color technologists.

Additionally, she's an international speaker and former tech contributor to Forbes. Presently, she is attending Georgia Tech and is a candidate for a master's in cybersecurity, which is coming imminently. So excited for you. Well, welcome, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jumoke Dada: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Heidi: I'm very excited for today. And I was actually trying to remember how and when we first met, and I'm not sure I can even, maybe just because we were both trying to build women in tech communities, but I feel like we met seven, eight years ago and have just kept in touch.

Jumoke: We did. We did. I can't remember either, but I know we kept in touch. We vibed, and we would check in on each other and how we were both doing with our communities, but I just can't remember the meeting point.

Heidi: Yeah, it's awesome. Well, I love getting to know you over the years and seeing all the amazing stuff you've done, and excited for you to share with our community, with the WEST community. Awesome.

Well, I'm going to start with some of the basics. Let's go all the way back since I have not known you that long. As a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Jumoke: Wow, as a kid, funny enough, so two things. One, a dancer and a choreographer, I should say, specifically, like dancer. I was very, very, very artsy, very into music, dance, drawing, all of that. And then a lawyer, and I think the lawyer, how the two were going to work out... but a lawyer. And that's with some influence from my parents because I just always, I believed in justice, and I needed things to be fair, and I was always trying to take up for someone or just make sure things were right. So from there it was like, you should be a lawyer, you should go to law school or consider something like that. But then I was always very, very, very much drawn to the arts.

Heidi: I love that. I love that. And do you feel like, as you think now about where your career has gone, do you ever see the creative arts side or the justice side? I think both of those probably still exist in your life, right?

Jumoke: Yeah, they do. Definitely the creative sides, and when I have to ideate for different projects or I'm sure I'll share more about some of the marketing and event planning I've done in the women in tech space and how those kind of innate skills that I have or ways that I'm creative just allowed me to develop these other platforms and resources for women. And then with the lawyer side, I think definitely, definitely a lot of writing. It's definitely been times when I've worn multiple hats in business, whether it's looking at contracts or having to just fight for myself or fight for someone else in some regard to rectify a situation and fight, meaning pursuing a matter to bring it to a close. So yeah, I definitely can see how it all works together collectively.

Heidi: Yeah, I love those, the childhood passions that just show up in some other form later on, which is really cool. So how did you get to where you are today? What has been your journey from those childhood dreams to what you're doing now?

Jumoke: Well, that's a loaded question. My path has not been a straight one, but it's pretty good. So I guess at a high level, since we talked about childhood, I went to school, I went to college, so I went the traditional route. I went to college, and I went through a period of just trying to figure out what I wanted to major in. I thought I was going to work in the music industry and do something there. I did an internship. I didn't like the internship. Came back to the semester, started looking at what can I do? What can I study? And paid attention to my classes and saw math and science. It all makes sense now, but that's what it was. I have parents that worked in the STEM field, specifically in the medical space, and I just knew I didn't want to be a doctor. I knew I didn't want to do anything with medicine.

I thought about engineering, I thought about some other roles, but I wasn't interested in that either. And I just settled on computer science. Right before I graduated college, I went to a career fair, and that's how I landed my first job. So I graduated and went straight to work in a corporate space, and then I moved into different roles. I was an application developer, I was a systems analyst, and just eventually realized that I liked people.

I liked moving away from the behind-the-scenes coding and things like that. I liked helping to solve problems between the business areas and the technical teams. And then eventually started doing project management work, and long story, and I'm sure we'll dive into the rest of this more deeply, but long story short, I was working in a corporate space.

I needed a break. I was trying to figure things out. I started my own company, and during that time, I did a combination of things like consulting work. I started planning some tech events and workshops for women. I was doing some writing and then public speaking, and eventually built a community. So that's how I started.

But where I am today is, as you shared in my bio, I'm currently a grad student, and that is because after working in both entrepreneurial and corporate spaces, by the time the pandemic hit, I was full-time entrepreneur working in my business, working for myself. And then things changed. And I just realized that a lot of the work that I've been doing has been to empower and uplift other women in tech, but I'm also not developing my skills. I'm kind of letting my technical background and everything kind of fall to the wayside.

And that's when I realized that I should probably upskill. And at the time, because of the dynamics in the world, I started paying attention to cybersecurity. So I applied to grad school, and that's how I've gotten to where I am right now.

Heidi: Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And it's so funny, because I feel like over the years I've always thought about, oh, maybe I should go back to school to acquire a new skill and whatnot, but that is a lot, and just take that on top of all of the other things you are doing. Did you have to talk yourself into being able to do all of that at once, or was it pretty straightforward that you were so excited about it that it just made sense?

Jumoke: Yeah, I definitely had to pump myself up to go back to school because it wasn't a hundred percent. It is not like I needed to go back to school. I wanted to, and because I even weighed the options of just going to get certifications. Because I could go to a bootcamp for six months or self-study on my own to get more knowledge in the space of cybersecurity.

But just knowing me and how I learn, I knew that I needed to go the traditional route. And if I'm going to do that, I might as well get the master's degree. My bachelor's is in computer science, so it just made sense. But I definitely took some pumping up to go to the process and just to readjust to learning in that way. And everything is different and it's online learning, and yeah, it's something, but I think I made the best decision for me to just go the traditional route.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. That's so awesome. I will say, having a daughter who just went off to college, not a lot of self-awareness yet about how she learns. And so I think when you're further along in your career, you have that self-awareness about how do I learn? How do I absorb information? What value am I going to get from this? You can sort of make more educated choices about that education, so that's really cool. And you're almost done, also. So do you know what you want to do with it now that you've got the master's? Will you be looking for a full-time role, or is this just to help your business that you've been running?

Jumoke: Yeah, I will be looking for a full-time role because everything, so in the beginning, I was juggling, I was kind of closing things out once I got in the program and saw the workload. And like I said, I had my company, which was consulting, writing, speaking, and then I had created this platform, which is how we met, called the Tech Women's Network. And that was evolving. And then from there, I realized a gap in conferences where there were a lot of conferences for people of color... entrepreneurs or founders, but I didn't see a lot of technical conferences for women of color in the corporate space that needed just encouragement or community and support with navigating the corporate landscape.

So, with going to school, I just realized that some things have to go like, okay, the community is going to take a lot more effort to run, which again, I did keep it going more passively, but the conference was turning into an octopus, a good octopus. But by 2022, I had completely paused everything to just focus on the program.

Heidi: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Well, super exciting. Super exciting. Well, if I can be helpful in the job search as you kick that off, let me know.

Jumoke: Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Yeah, that's an interesting thing because I actually met with a career coach, which, it was my first time doing that. I've always been very kind of clear and decisive when I'm working on my projects or when I'm creating something or building a thing.

But with entering the new space of cyber, I've always worked in tech just in a more general sense, managing technical projects. But with moving into a space where I wanted to specialize, I just realized that this is a totally different arena, even from the standpoint of I was producing a conference, these cybersecurity conferences that I now know about, I had never heard of them before. I was completely, I was not in tune with what was happening in the cyber space, specifically.

And I've just learned so much over the three years. In addition to conferences, just who are the other people like myself, who are the other women of color in this space, or who are the leaders in this space? In my entire career, I had not been paying attention to any of the papers, the cyber magazines, the conferences, or all of these things. It's been an entire new world for me. So...

Heidi: I love that.

Jumoke: It's been a learning curve.

Heidi: Yeah, that is so cool. Yeah, no, I think you're right. Once you sort of tap in and scratch at the surface a little bit, you realize a whole sub-communities about so many things out there, and there is a lot there. It's just that you have to know what to look for. So that's super exciting. Well, you have done so many fascinating things. What do you feel like has been a highlight of your career?

Jumoke: I think if I'm choosing one thing, it would be creating and running the HUE Tech Summit, because I think that was me stepping out of my comfort zone in a lot of ways, because the theme behind it was No More Hidden Figures, and it came out of one, I had built the Tech Women Network, and that community was growing, and I'm someone who creates what I need if I don't see it or if I don't have it.

Like I know in the tech space that I need a community, and sometimes I would join different ones, but there was always still something missing. And when I realized the gap with the conference space, specifically with women technologists in that regard and trying to move up in the corporate spaces, I'm like, I would've needed this type of support and these type of conferences, events, especially as someone just coming out of college and trying to figure out what am I going to, what does it look like for me 20 years from now as this young coder?

And I didn't have a vision for where I could eventually be with my current skillset. And again, this is talking to young me, fresh out of college, working in the corporate world as this developer. I didn't have a North Star, so to speak.

So with creating the HUE Tech Summit, I just realized that one, there are so many more of mes out there. There's so many other women of color in tech that have been in the tech space 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, many, many years. But I didn't know who they were. And that created a space for us to come out because a lot of times we work behind the scenes.

Our jobs, what exists now with these women in tech communities didn't exist when I first started. So it's changed now that we're seeing the meetups, we're seeing the write-ups about top 10 women to follow in tech or top 20 IT directors...

I'm just making this up.

But with creating a conference, it just really drew out a lot of women that had been in the space that we're also looking for community that wanted to learn amongst each other, share resources, and uplift and elevate one another.

It also, for a number of people, was the jumpstart for public speaking. Some people had never did technical talks or submitted to speak at a conference. Which was me, at one point. I was not doing that. I was not submitting to talk. I was not submitting to do a presentation. And when I did start eventually doing public speaking, I was only comfortable if it was going to be a panel or if it was going to be something small.

And so I think that for me, that starting that conference in so many ways is a highlight in terms of just making myself step out of my comfort zone to plan a conference.

I had no experience planning a conference. Again, I'm a technical person, but I've always had this creative side, this marketing knack, and I've always been an organized planner. So just, again, coming out of my comfort zone, creating something, building it, watching it grow, and empowering other people to step out of their comfort zone, start speaking, start connecting, start networking.

A lot of us in the space, I found, were introverted, and that is another reason why we're not raising our hand to go and do public speaking and not other things. So it just really catapulted me to the front and changed my life in a number of ways. So.

Heidi: Oh, I love that. I love that. So much of that resonates, and I love that recognizing what you need for yourself and then realizing there are so many other folks around. And I do feel like in some ways we've come so far with women in tech and all of the initiatives that are out there, but also feeling like there's a lot of steps backward or that new folks who are entering the industry don't really know all the things that have come before.

Or like you said, tapping into the cybersecurity community. I think it's the same thing. Women don't know how to tap into women in tech networks and things like that. And I love your statement around giving folks a platform to practice skills like public speaking and giving technical talks. And there is so much about community around, we're not just getting together to just chat about stuff, but it's networking and it's skill development, and it's giving people role models where they may not have had role models, things like that. So it really is such a powerful thing, and I really applaud you for having started that. And I think I attended your summit one year at the HUE Summit.

Jumoke: Yeah.

Heidi: And it was fantastic, and it really was great. It was so inspirational, and I just loved seeing that community be together and really, really fantastic event. So huge kudos to you.

Jumoke: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it really was a good, I guess the entire span was about five years.

Heidi: Wow. Wow. Five years. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Yeah. How big did the Tech Women Network get over the years that you, because you started it in 2017, is that right?

Jumoke: I did. I started it in 2017. I don't really recall the numbers, but definitely in the thousands. And then what made it really great is that it grew globally. So it started, my very first idea for it was because a lot of people saw me as a resource. So people were coming to me for referrals. They knew that I worked today like, Hey, Jumoke, do you know a graphic designer? Or, Hey, Jumoke, do you know somebody that can help me build a mobile app? And I'm like, I do, I do, I do.

But then I would draw a blank because I couldn't remember who did what. I have a large network. I'm like, oh, who does that? And blah, blah, blah. So I was like, oh, it would be great if I just had a website where people could connect with each other solely based on skill. So the first version of it was just you put in your skill, you put in your location, and it was a searchable database with faces, like everyone's face. It allowed you to see who were all the graphic designers, who were all the mobile app developers, and people could just connect that way.

So it grew. Women were signing up, left and right, and I just don't recall the high numbers, but it definitely grew to definitely in the thousands. And I was really impressed because there were women from other countries that were joining as well.

Heidi: Cool. Wow. Any idea how they found out about it? I mean, I guess that's how word of mouth happens, but that's really cool.

Jumoke: Yeah, I think it was word of mouth. I would have to say a lot of what I've done has been organic, and it's really been, that's the only way, that's the way I can think about it.

Not that nothing has had a strategy. There's been strategy, and definitely as things were growing and we built branding and social media platforms, but a lot of it was organic. And I think because I was active in the communities and visible, and look, we met or I would go to things, I would support other people. I would try and learn for myself.

So I just had this network, and I was always sharing information. And I think that that's part of why what I created grew the way that it did in some regard, because I think I attracted like-minded women, and it just grew.

Heidi: I love that, I love that. And I like how it, once you set that up, it can take on a life of its own, and it's really hard to start a community, but once it gets some momentum, it does sort of continue to grow and build organically, which is really cool. That's awesome. That's awesome.

I was going to ask if, I know we already talked about going to school, and I don't know if that will end up being your answer, but what is the scariest or riskiest thing you've ever done in your career, and how'd you get up the courage to do it?

Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsor.

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Heidi: And now back to our discussion.

Jumoke: Going back to school was definitely one, I think moving into entrepreneurship.... Well, I have a few things. And public speaking, I have quite a few stories. So with entrepreneurship, I'll tie in entrepreneurship and the public speaking together.

So kind of how I said a lot of people are introverted. I consider myself an introverted person, also, but I'm an introverted person with an extroverted lifestyle. So I can turn it on if I'm trying to get something done, if I need to meet a specific person, the switch flips. But then I also can finish doing all of that and just go and be in a corner somewhere and just resetting for a week.

But there was a time when I decided rather than to look for another job, to start Signature Red, which I did. And that was scary because I didn't learn business. I don't have business experience. I didn't go to school for it. I just had never run anything in that regard. So doing that, I went to a small business development center trying to figure out how do you write a business plan? How do you do this? How do you do that?

So that was scary, especially when I was comfortable having a regular paycheck, working in a corporate. That was all that I knew. And doing that, and then also now having to be the front person. I have to sell what it is that I can do. I have to talk to people because it's all me. At the time, I was the lawyer, I was the secretary, I was the salesperson.

So all of my skills and my childhood dreams, as we shared, just kind of kicked in. So starting that, and I remember there was a project that I worked on, because, like I said, I would do consulting here and there and build people's websites and things like that. And this woman, she liked something, I don't remember the exact thing, and we're still in touch today, but she was trying to figure out who did something, and it was me.

And she said, I was trying to find out who did this, XYZ, and I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, yeah, I didn't put my name on it because I just didn't, didn't really want it out there. Because I think I was in the middle of two different projects. And she said, why are you hiding? So that was the very pivotal time for me.

She's like, why are you hiding? You need to put your name on stuff. You need to let it be known. This is what you did. This is, you contributed X, Y, and Z. And I was so content just being in behind the scenes, that hearing that really pushed me. I redesigned my website, I put all my projects, I put all the events I did. I just became a more upfront person.

And that is why down the road, when I created that summit, the whole No More Hidden Figures theme came to mind because I'm like, there's so many people that have contributed great things to different industries, different sectors, and you don't even know who they are because they are behind the scenes. They're comfortable there.

No, no more say, come to the front, be seen, be heard. Let it be known. This is who you are. This is what you do. Because also, not to jump into too many things, but we need to be seen. We need the generations coming behind us to see us, to see that we exist. Being, I dunno, some sort of engineer or database administrator, that's not a sexy job. So you're not going to see DBAs on the front of XYZ magazine, or whatever things girls are looking at, younger girls.

You're not going to see. So you may not even think of that as a potential job that you can do or profession or area to get into because you don't see it, being DBA, you can't even think of what that is. But when you start to relate it to, well now different things, like kids have more cell phones now, or they have maybe things that they track. This is your little database, this is.... And when you need certain information, you go and you pull it out and you take it. This is a database, and there are people that do this in a very big way for big companies. So I just think that being in the forefront, coming from behind the scenes, has been crucial.

Heidi: Yeah, no, and it is a huge step to put yourself out there. And I think I've talked to so many people, very often, women, who are talking about like, well, I don't want to brag or I don't want to look like I have a big ego. And it is interesting, we had a leadership talk recently about owning your impact. And it was, how can you reframe sharing your accomplishments in a way that doesn't feel selfish, but is actually altruistic?

Like I am being a role model to future women in tech, or I am sharing my knowledge so that other people have an easier time doing a thing than I did when I tried. Thinking about the sort of positive benefits for others, as opposed to thinking instead just about how might it reflect on me as a person and whatnot. And I loved that way to sort of reframe it. And I love that someone asked you, why are you hiding? And that you found all these great ways, great benefits for everyone to benefit from you sharing your expertise. That's really awesome.

Jumoke: Yeah, thank you. And as you were talking, I was just thinking of other things too, just even from a global standpoint. Even the fact that I'm Nigerian American, I never talked about that. I never shared, I never talked about it. I never, there's just things in corporate spaces, you don't talk about.

But now, this is who I am, and if I'm here doing this and I'm inspiring girls in Africa, so be it. This is who I am, and then even if I just touch a little bit on just, even if you think of African community, and it is probably not just African communities a lot, but we are not supposed to draw attention to ourselves. We're not supposed to... The whole thing about being brag or boastful or... You're not. You're supposed to be demure, so you'd be smart, you'd be all these things, but you're not supposed to, look at me, I did this. Look at me, I did that. And that is part of why I had this reservedness. That's not a word, but you know what I mean, that I had, because of that kind of dimming of my light, and I don't have to dim my light.

I don't have to be worried about not coming across as too confident or not being humble. You can be humble and confident at the same time. So I think that, yeah, there's no more hiding for me, and there's no more. And even with, I'm going to touch on this, too, hair.

So I used to always wear my hair straight, and I used to always do that. And then I went natural, and I love my Afro, and I'm just like, this is me. This is how my hair comes out of my head, and it comes with me everywhere. So if someone doesn't want to hire me because I have big hair, then that's just not the place for me. And so I was wearing my Afro, and then I did a set of photos, my headshots and stuff, it's with my Afro, and it just worked and it is what it is. So I just wanted to just touch on those things.

Heidi: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I agree. I feel like that pattern of society may imply a way that you need to be, but our job is not to make society happy. And so why are we buying into the norms that are set for us? And I love that.

And I think that both being who you are and showing, I don't have to conform. I can do it my way. I can be an individual. I can express myself how I want to, is a second piece of empowerment there. Not only are you a role model in one way because people can see, oh, that's a thing I might aspire to, a job or a role or whatnot, but also that I don't have to play by other people's rules. I can do it my way.

And I really do think, I always wonder, I don't know if you think this too, but when I think about engineering, I feel like I get to systems thinking and it makes me think about the sort of water we're swimming in and to question the water we're swimming in, and what is this system making me do and what outcome is happening because of that?

Do you ever get that where you get, I'm sure cybersecurity, too. You've got to be deep in systems thinking.

Jumoke: Systems, yeah. Yeah. Systems thinking. And I just think I'm just a deep thinker, and at times an overthinker. But yeah, and I think because what I said before, I think because I'm a trained technologist, that again, if I didn't study it, this is not who I would be because I'm naturally an artist. I know this, I'm naturally an artsy person.

But because I was trained to code and trained in hardcore, like C++, to search through code and trace through things very logically to find what's going on where, it's just formed how I think overall. So yes, I agree with the system thinking.

Heidi: Yeah, yeah. It's so funny. It is funny as I've gotten from coding, problem solving to organizational or people or business or whatever, I always tell folks, I'm like, it's just a different kind of problem solving. But I think I use the same, like you were saying, debugging techniques. What's going on and be like, this person's behaving this way. There must be a reason that's causing them to behave that way. It's not that they're a bad person or whatever.

Jumoke: Right. I agree.

Heidi: I love it. I love it. Awesome, awesome. Yeah, so fascinating.

So yeah, I know, I guess we've talked about that a little bit, but do you feel like there's a particular sort of skill or expertise that, I guess I was going to say, I don't know the question exactly, but I feel like women come to WEST all the time and they have things that they want to cultivate. Maybe it's personal brand or maybe it's the ability to influence or it's leadership or strategic thinking or entrepreneurship.

Is there something that you feel like you have cultivated for yourself, maybe in the realm of stuff we've already talked about or something else? And how have you acquired that skill, or how have you cultivated that? I know that's really broad. I guess authenticity, you were saying, is one piece of it, but....

Jumoke: Yeah, I think how, if I'm going to summarize everything in terms of just what I've already shared in my career path and journey and self-reflection, introspection during the, what do you call it, the pandemic, and going back to school, and how do I learn and all of that. All of it, I think, at the root of it is authenticity.

And I just think that I've also come to realize that with everything that I've done, there's been a few elements that's always been present. One, I love men, but I am passionate about helping women and girls, supporting, building community, all of that. Not anti-men, but just that's my passion. That's my ilk. I have a lot of sisters. It is just who I am.

And with that building community space, education. I noticed that I'm always, I've always enjoyed bringing people together to learn, to connect, to meet that.

And then the next thing is elevation is like, how do we go up? What do we need to know? Hey, women, what are we going to learn? And then how do we help each other now go up. Up, we each one teach one, reach back, you learn, you grow, you come and you speak, to pour into someone else.

Those elements have always been there. Community building, education, women, and lifting up. And with all of that, it's been at the root of it, authenticity, because that's just who I am. So that's what gets birthed out of me. These types of resources or platforms or tools or projects, it always has those elements because it's just who I am.

So I don't know if that answers the question about cultivating, but those are the elements. And it's all rooted in me being, understanding, and embracing me. Me and flaws. Me and what I need. I need community. I don't want to be on an island. I need other people. I want everyone to win, good people to win. I want everyone to be happy, be fulfilled in their careers, be balanced, and whatever God-given talents I have that can help people do that, is what I want to do and what I want to put out into the world. So that's it.

Heidi: I love it. I love it. Well, and actually, it really resonates with me, that authenticity. I'm a huge believer in that, too. I feel like I lead with authenticity, too. I don't know how to be any other way. It feels like it would be exhausting to try to be somebody I'm not.

And it does free you up. It requires self-reflection, though, to understand who am I? What do I need? What do I want? What fills my cup? What empties my cup, and how do I keep the energy going? All of that, to not only do what I want to do, but to be able to have the energy to support others along the way.

And so I do think self-reflection is an underrated skill that people should all figure out how to cultivate and build awareness about who they are, what their limits are, what they'll say yes to, what they'll say no to, et cetera, et cetera. And so I appreciate that about you. It sounds like you've done a lot of self-reflection.

Jumoke: Yeah, self-reflection. And I know my boundaries, and I've mastered how to enforce them in a way that's nice. a nice way, but a respectful way, but a protective way for me. So because you have to, and especially someone like someone that's a giver or someone that is a genuine champion of women and wanting people to win, it also can imply that... it can also attract takers. A lot of that.

And so that's why I've had to learn to have strong boundaries and how to enforce them in a way that I can still do what I like to do and not burn bridges, but just to just be true to who I am, what I can handle at any given time, and also provide references and resources. If it's something that I can't do, hey, maybe this person can help or not.

Heidi: I love that. I love that. I do feel like teaching a skill of helping folks learn how to set boundaries and say no, is honestly, I feel like we could do a whole hour on that because I think it is hard for folks and they feel guilty. And again, this is culture saying, you should not let other people down. You should, whatever it is.

But do you have any tips or tricks on how you first started setting boundaries? Like you said, you can say, not me, but someone else can help you. Do you have tips on how to start sending boundaries?

Jumoke: I don't want to be repetitive. I think you have to really know yourself, because I think sometimes people may not have boundaries because they struggle with people-pleasing.

Heidi: Yeah.

Jumoke: And if that's at the root, then that's different work that you have to do, because now you need to figure out, why am I a people pleaser? What is it about it? Do I have low self-esteem? What else is around that?

And that, again, comes from introspection, self-reflection, therapy, whatever it is that you need. But once you understand that, what that thing is that's causing you to not have boundaries or not, then there's so many different things you can do. But maybe start with one thing that you're not going to do anymore, or even whether it's blocking out your calendar. Like, I no longer work on Saturdays. I no longer respond to emails on Sundays.

You can just start to pick one or two things that you just do not want to do anymore. Or types of places or jobs you just know you do not want to do. But I think it also comes back to understanding yourself and having confidence that even if you say no to this or you can't help with that, guess what? Life will go on.

Whoever needed the help, they're going to get it. They really want that thing. So they will figure out a way to get it without you. This other thing that can't be done, somehow it's going to get done. So once you realize that life is going on with or without you, hey, do what's best for you and your health, your mental state. That's another conversation.

It's just really, you have to value yourself enough to know when doing things that give you anxiety or pressure or overwhelm you or have you booked in busy all the time does not serve you, and stop.

Heidi: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Oh, all such good advice. Awesome.

Well, we are coming up on our time, but I wanted to, I always have some fun closing questions, and trying to figure out which ones to pick. But I guess maybe to start with, do you have a piece of advice that you would give to your younger self?

Jumoke: So many things. I think I alluded to it, the piece of, stop hiding or stop.... I spent lot of time just dimming my light, and we didn't even get into the whole thing of me skipping a year of school. So I didn't even share that. When I started college, I was younger, and then all these things, and I just found myself minimizing everything. Like, oh, okay, no, you're really smart. You're really like, oh, okay. Or, oh...I just spent a lot of time just trying to, I don't know, assimilate. I don't know if that's the word I'm looking for, but just trying to fit in or just not draw too much attention to myself, like I said earlier, or not exert confidence at times just so that I wouldn't come off as X, Y, and Z. Or not put my name on a project. Or there's so many things that I did that I'm just like, oh, why? So that would be it.

There's this term everyone is saying now, you are who you say you are. Embrace who you are. Embrace who you are. And I've always been a nerd. I've always been a nerd. I've always been a geeky kind of person, but a cool nerd, but that's just who I am. And I didn't have to dim any parts of me, the nerdy part or the introverted whatever part, or the one that can flip the switch and be extroverted when I needed to be.

So that would be it. Not dim my light, not hide. And then, probably enjoy my being a woman in STEM more, as opposed to not doing it, or just thinking I didn't belong there or wanting to...maybe I should just start my own company and explore these other skills and talents that I have that I don't really have outlets for in the corporate roles that I had. So there's a lot in there, but definitely not hiding and not dimming my light would be at the top.

Heidi: I love it. I love it. Well, you are certainly a bright light, for sure. And maybe to end on one more positive note, what is something that you are looking forward to this year? I know it started out as a really tough year for a lot of folks. Is there something that you are inspired by or looking forward to this year?

Jumoke: Graduation. I'm ready to wrap this up. I am looking forward to closing this chapter. It has been quite an undertaking and an experience for me. I've learned so much about myself, about cyberspace. And people in this journey and the world and how dark it can be with all that's going on, and the fact that there are people that just wake up every day wanting to ruin someone's life or infrastructure or... it's dark and it's just been... interesting.

So I'm looking forward to graduating, and I'm looking forward to putting this new set of skills that I have to use. I'm looking for work. So after I finish wrapping up, I'm looking forward to getting back into corporate spaces and working in the field.

What's going to happen? I'm not going to bring back the summit. I'm not going to do that. TWN, I think that's a great community. What's going to happen there is TBD. But I'm looking forward to just at least closing this chapter of learning in this way.

Heidi: Yeah. Well, congratulations and best of luck with your final projects, exams, and graduation, and being able to put it to good work, like you said, to fight all of that darkness that is out there. So empowering to be like, there's something concrete that I can do to improve things and whatnot.

So wish you the best of luck, and just want to say thank you so much for sharing all of your experiences, super inspiring. Just really loved hearing your stories and your outlook and fantastic advice for younger women that are coming up behind us. So thank you so much for your time.

Jumoke: Thank you. Thanks again for having me, and thank you for just creating a platform like this for people to share. I know that it takes a lot to produce and to put it out there, and just thank you. I just want to at least recognize that. And thank you for your hard work.

Heidi: Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, take care.

Jumoke: All right. Take care.

Karen: Engineer Your Career is produced by WEST, a learning community that empowers women technologists through mentorship. Special thanks to our audio production team, Heidi Williams, Amanda Beaty, and yours truly, Karen Ko. If you enjoy our work, we encourage you to share this episode with a friend. Want to hear more from Engineer Your Career? Subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. We look forward to having you back for our next episode. Thanks for tuning in.