Tech for Good with Josie Daw (Podcast & Transcript)
“For me, the social good aspect is such an important feature [of the hackathon]. I think you can really have a ripple effect every time that you're doing a social good project.” - Josie Daw
Josie Daw is a British full-stack developer and app developer actively contributing to South Korea's tech scene. She leverages technology to build impactful projects and especially loves to work on projects, whether as a developer or organizer, to create social impact.
In this episode we discuss:
Josie’s unconventional path to becoming a full-stack developer
How she gives back to the community through coding workshops and hackathons
Her passion for encouraging more people to feel comfortable with coding
Her current open-source project and how you can get involved
Advice she’d give her younger self
Transcript has been edited for clarity.
Karen Ko: Hey there. Welcome to Engineer Your Career, a podcast brought to you by WEST, a learning community empowering women technologists through mentorship. Join us as we hear from inspiring women tech leaders who are challenging stereotypes and paving the way for future generations. We hope their career journeys inspire you with new ideas to engineer your career. Let's get started.
Heidi Williams: Hello, everybody. Welcome to our latest episode of Engineer Your Career. I'm Heidi, and I'm excited to introduce our guest for today, Josie Daw. Josie is a British full-stack developer and an app developer who is actively contributing to South Korea's tech scene. She leverages technology to build impactful projects and especially loves to work on projects as a developer or an organizer to create social impact. So welcome, Josie. Good to have you here.
Josie Daw: Thank you so much for having me here today. Thanks for the nice introduction.
Heidi: Yeah, very excited to hear your story. I feel like you have such a unique experience and set of things that you have done in your career, and I'm excited to share that more with our community. So maybe to start with, tell us a little bit about what is it that you're doing right now?
Josie: Right now, I'm a full-stack developer working for a company here in South Korea. For my hobbies, I like to make websites, and I also like to make apps, usually focused on education or some kind of social impact.
Heidi: Very cool. Yes, and I'm so excited to dig into social impact in a minute, but tell me a little bit about Korea. Did you grow up in South Korea?
Josie: No, no. I was raised in the UK, and I ended up coming to South Korea because of the Brexit referendum in 2016. Essentially, I graduated from a non-tech track, and I decided that the best option for me would be to try to go elsewhere. So I ended up in Korea and I've been here ever since.
Heidi: You told me a little bit ahead of time about how you picked Korea. You told me that you studied history while you were in university. So tell me a little bit about how that played into your choice of Korea in particular.
Josie: Well, essentially, I had learned about Korea from a bit of a different context to most people because I studied it in terms of international relations, politics, and history. So I knew more about the historical background of Korea than I did about its cultural impact. So that was really what drew me to the country, as opposed to say K-pop or any of the popular dramas at the moment.
Heidi: So fascinating. That's really exciting. And it's interesting, I feel like I've now met a few folks who are developers in South Korea, so it's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it before, but now I feel like I have a growing network from South Korea, which is cool. Awesome.
Well, maybe we'll go into a little bit of your background, and then we'll get to talk about the social impact stuff that you've done more recently. But maybe to start with, tell us a little bit about your journey into programming. How did you get into what you are doing today?
Josie: My journey is a bit of a long and convoluted one. As you mentioned, I came from a history background, so going into tech was not something that I'd ever thought about or even considered. It just so happened that I did a job interview for a completely unrelated role, and for the interview, I was given a stack of papers. I was told to bring my laptop, and I was asked to open up the terminal on my laptop and then just follow the directions in the papers, and it turned out to be about eight pages of a basic coding tutorial, essentially.
I guess the test was to see how well I could follow directions, but it was my first time ever really doing something like that in a terminal and realizing that this is what coding is. I had no idea. I'd taken computer classes in school, and it had mostly been spreadsheets-related or making a website using Dreamweaver, if you remember that software.
And I had no idea that this using the terminal to make it do things is a part of coding, and I was so surprised that it wasn't as scary or as complicated as I thought it would be. I thought coding was a lot more mathematical-based, and certainly some is, but not all of it.
So that was my kind of first foray, and it stuck in the back of my mind even as I moved on to other things, got other jobs. So I started to do some workshops, like learn how to code workshops, or I followed some online tutorials, and I would usually hit a wall, but at a certain point, I was able to make my own little websites, and they were terrible, really, really bad.
Nothing I would put on my portfolio today, but it was something that I wanted to do in my free time. I enjoyed doing it, so I realized maybe this is something that has more potential, and a few years down the line, I think six years after that initial interview, I ended up quitting my job.
I quit my job and I decided, okay, I'm going to study coding. I'm going to make this my job. And about 11 months later, I had a full-time tech job. So it was quite an exciting experience, but I feel very lucky that I found this thing that I really, really enjoy doing, and I also get to work in it.
Heidi: I love that, I love that, and that really is one of the more unique stories I've ever heard about how someone was introduced to coding. I just love it.
It is funny, though. I mean, just sort of remembering back when I was a kid, I didn't think of it as programming at the time, either. This is really dating me, but back in the eighties, my dad got Basic Magazine and he had one of the really early Radio Shack computers and we opened Basic Magazine and we typed the instructions also into a terminal and made a little program run and that sort of immediate spark of like, look, I made something and it does something was really awesome at the moment.
Of course, I then didn't think about programming again until I got in college. So my journey was a little bit longer in between moments than yours, but that is so awesome. But immediately when you said translating paper into code, I was like, oh yes, I did that in the early eighties, so fantastic. Oh, I love that. And so you were basically getting your first job and moving to Korea right around the same time. Is that right?
Josie: The timeline's a little bit different. I was already in Korea for a few years before I got my first job in tech. I'd been doing some teaching, and then I was working in an office, and ultimately working in a standard office job is what made me quit my job and decide to go into tech.
Heidi: Excellent. Oh, got it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. That's really cool. Excellent.
And so tell me a little bit about how you got your first tech role. What was the most surprising thing that you encountered when you got that first role?
Josie: I think the most surprising thing was how helpful everyone was. Even along the learning journey, people were always saying, oh, if you need any help with this or if you get stuck on something, just let me know.
I was starting to meet more people in the coding world here in South Korea, and everyone was so kind and generous with their time, and it's not something I'd really experienced in my previous jobs or when I was studying history. It was very, very new. It was very, very welcome, but I found it was an absolute contrast to the path that I'd been on before in academia. When I went to academic conferences or when I would talk to my fellow cohort, you didn't really offer to proofread anyone's work, and you didn't offer to do anything that would really help them.
Your role really was to critique them, and in a way, it was something that's very isolating. It's very hypercompetitive, very toxic. And although there's spaces like that in coding, mostly people in coding are aware that collaboration is how you can succeed even if you're not working together directly.
And it is so wonderful to know that the coding community globally has so many open source projects. It has so much software that has been developed by people giving up their free time to help other people. It's really one of the best things about this industry, and I think it's something that is quite unique, actually.
Heidi: I love that. I love that. That's so true. And sometimes I think maybe I've just been a lot of places that I was lucky to have those same kinds of experiences, but I think you're right. I think that is out there quite a lot. And it sounds like maybe you were already inspired to do this, but it sounds like you yourself have given a lot back to the community as well. You started an organization called Constant Coding. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is and how you came up with the idea?
Josie: Yeah, so Constant Coding is a group that I created and run to help people, particularly from underrepresented backgrounds, get into tech, and usually that takes the form of workshops or events just to try and help people who are absolute beginners understand a bit more about technology and hopefully reduce some of the fear that people have about technology.
It's especially something that I noticed whenever I was meeting people after I became a full-time developer, I would very often have women telling me, oh, I was always interested in learning how to code, but life got in the way.
Or very often I would hear, but I can't do math, or I'm not very good at math. And I would say, oh, me too, actually, I'm not very good at math. I can barely count. It turns out you don't have to do a lot of math in some tech roles because the computer actually does the math for you. That's why we have computers.
So, as I was meeting so many people, and I still meet people to this day who will have that reaction upon meeting me, I realized there is this gap in the market, and there are a lot of people who would like to learn at least something, but they're being held back by something else. And so yeah, this organization came out of those experiences.
Heidi: I love that. Yeah, I think that's so important. And like you said, it sounds like you're really just finding ways to at least break down barriers and get folks introduced. And I think often it is that first step in realizing it's not impossible, that really then gives you the inspiration to keep going. That's super cool. Yeah. Awesome.
And so when you first had this idea, how did you get it going? What kinds of things did you have to do to get it up and running?
Josie: I had already had some experience organizing events before. I had helped organize a coding community that did workshops in Seoul already a few years before. So I kind of had an idea about what I would need to do to just run a workshop.
So basically, the steps were pretty simple in my mind. I was like, okay, I have to come up with a name. That was the most important thing for me, come up with a name that would keep me interested and then make the Eventbrite, make the Meetup, prepare my presentations, and everything else sort of fell into place after that point.
What I learned is if you organize events like this, at least one person will come. There will always be at least one person interested. So I try to think like, well, as long as I'm helping at least one person, then I haven't wasted my time putting this PowerPoint together. I haven't wasted my energy. So, so far it's been pretty much a positive experience.
Heidi: That's awesome. And you told me a nice story about how you came up with the name. I do feel [cross-talk] The hardest thing is naming. So, how did you come up with the name Constant Coding?
Josie: So yeah, as I said, I think choosing a name is really important because it's something that you will hold onto and also keeps you motivated when you're doing the harder parts. And so for me, I've spent a lot of time trying to think of something, and I'd spent the first two years of my tech career coding every single day, like 365 days for two years.
And I often listen to music on YouTube when I'm doing that. And one of the songs that I listened to was “Constant Craving” by k.d. lang, and as I'm listening, I'll often sing along or change the lyrics. And so it came out of that song where I was changing the lyrics to Constant Coding because in my life, I was just constantly coding for so long, and it became just sort of a bit of a mantra in my own head. And I was like, oh, I'm surprised no one's used this as a name for something. And I was more surprised to find that the domain was available. So I was like, well, this is fate. So that is why I chose the name, basically.
Heidi: Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsor.
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Heidi: And now back to our discussion.
Awesome. Well, that's so cool. I love that you found a great name for it. So what kinds of activities do you do?
Josie: So usually we do workshops. I run workshops usually once a month, and usually they're online workshops. So I've had people attending from all around the world, even though I usually do it on the South Korean time zone. I've had people from various parts of Africa. I've had people from the U.S. It's been really great to see how this can reach people everywhere. So that's why I prefer online workshops, because it can reach more people.
Usually, the workshops are a code-along where I'll do something like let's build a basic resume website or just build a basic HTML website. And I give the materials and everything upfront, so if someone gets lost, they can still follow along, but we do it together, and at the end of the two hours, they'll have a basic page that they can think, I made this. And almost every time it's gone well.
But in addition to workshops, I also do usually offline seminars for stuff that's more like intro to tech, generally. So I've done how to get into tech or career paths in tech, and last year I did one that was about AI and ChatGPT for beginners that was really well received, and I was surprised to find the diversity of participants, particularly the age range.
And I think these kinds of things are very, very important as an educational tool right now to teach people that these newly developing technologies are not necessarily a threat to them or their jobs, and something that they can use to become more efficient while also being aware of the potential dangers that can exist.
Heidi: Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Those all sound so amazing. And so what do you feel like the impact has been? How many folks do you think have interacted with Constant Coding?
Josie: So it's only been about two years, but I would say definitely hundreds of people have been impacted. I've had people who attended my sessions back at the start of 2022 who are now doing things in the tech field, and they said to me like, oh, I was inspired from that workshop that you did. And it's really positive to hear that kind of feedback, and I'm looking forward to hearing more stories like that in the future.
Heidi: Very cool. Well, congratulations. That's really exciting. So it sounds like also that's not the only thing you do to help the community. You also started and lead the Seoul Tech Impact Hackathon. Can you tell us about what that is and how it got started?
Josie: Yeah, so as you said, it's a hackathon that I made. Essentially, it's a hackathon for social good that takes place here in South Korea, and I created it because there is not very many opportunities for hackathons for non-Koreans in Korea.
There's a few reasons for that. One of them is language barrier, but another one is that there are sometimes strange institutional rules. So, for example, some Korean universities do not allow international students to join the hackathons, which is weird because they're paying to go to the university. But yeah, it means that, really, it's quite difficult for developers here to join any kind of hackathon.
And in 2024, there was only one other hackathon that took place in English that people could join, which is kind of crazy because Korea has 50 million people, and it has quite a large tech industry.
So yeah, it's a little bit weird that it's structured like that, but I felt like there was this great opportunity to do something. And particularly, I had joined some online hackathons that took place in the US, and I joined them remotely. And I felt like that was such a positive and useful experience, and I really, really wanted to join one in Korea, but I couldn't. So I thought if I can't join one, at least I can make one for other people.
Heidi: I love that. I love that. You had mentioned, actually, the two that you had done from the U.S.. I think both of them are supporting underrepresented groups as well. But what were the two that you did that were from the U.S.?
Josie: So the biggest one that I've joined is Technica, which takes place in Maryland, and I also joined the Women Who Code Hackathon, which unfortunately no longer exists.
Heidi: Oh, yes, yes. I was very sorry to hear about that. I know they had a huge impact in the time that they were an organization. Just really, really impactful for folks.
Alright, well, cool. Well, thank you for sharing both of those. And I imagine that during a scrap— sorry, we'll ask that differently. I know that during a hackathon, folks have to be kind of scrappy, but I imagine planning a hackathon is not that scrappy. What kind of work goes into it?
Josie: There is a lot of work, as you might imagine. The first year, it was a bit scrappy, I will say, because I was doing it a bit more last-minute. It had actually been my 2023 New Year's resolution to organize a hackathon, but unfortunately, I also had to plan my own wedding that year. So what happened was I got married in October, and I did the hackathon in November.
So I had a smaller window of time, but I was able to secure a location a bit more in advance. But yeah, so it was a bit scrappy the first year, but the second year I started organizing it basically nine months in advance, which, if you're thinking about hackathons, usually they're actually planned about a year in advance at least. But in Korea, things don't really work that way.
So anyway, the things that go into it is mostly the pre-planning, the organization, every single thing that you can imagine, from organizing the other organizers. We had a very small core team in both years, and then also organizing volunteers, and you have to sort of schedule their shifts and what they need. You've got to get judges and participants. In this past year, we had workshoppers and hackers, so absolute beginners were able to join without having to make a finished product.
Heidi: Oh, that's cool.
Josie: We really do a lot of organizing behind the scenes. I would say I made literally hundreds of pages of documents for all the different stakeholders involved.
And from day one, it's always hard, but for me, I really enjoy this kind of thing. I think about it as someone who is kind of like the head of logistics for an army. You have all of these different moving pieces, and they all need to be doing something, and they all need to be doing it on a very particular schedule to make sure that the end result will happen.
So I often think of it that way, and it's something that I find very challenging but very enjoyable. But I would not say that it's for everyone. You have to have, I think, experience with project management and event organizing to be able to pull something like this together, or you need a team who has that experience to help you.
Heidi: That's amazing. Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, unbelievable. I'm not sure that I have all of those skill sets to pull off something like that. And I have to say, honestly, I'm picturing you in the future, and I'm like, you're going to be this amazing CTO or COO or CEO who can pull things together like that. It must be an incredible skill set. I can't wait to see what you end up doing with that as you go forward in your career. That's really, really cool. Awesome.
And so I think you told us a little bit already about what's unique about this hackathon in terms of it being English-only in Korea, but anything else that you want to call out about what's unique about this hackathon?
Josie: Yeah, for sure. There's so many things that make it unique, not only for the English factor, but also it is pretty much the only hackathon in Korea that is truly for social good without any other boundaries attached. There's no particular technology required to be used. There's no particular APIs required to be used. So it is quite unlimited in that way.
It's also the only hackathon in Korea that is not sponsored by a major company or by the government or by a university. We're mostly funded by individual donations, actually. So that is extremely unique.
It is a very, very special setting. It has the highest gender ratio of a hackathon in South Korea, and it aligns kind of with the world ratio for hackathons. We have the highest diversity for a hackathon in South Korea. There's so many different factors that make it unique, and I'm really proud of all of those, actually.
Heidi: That is really good. Yeah, that's so amazing to hear all of that and congratulations. It's so cool. And also, I think picking the social good as the lens is also really fascinating and inspiring. So tell me a little bit about how you decided to pick that as the lens or as the theme for this hackathon.
Josie: I think because I went in knowing that we probably wouldn't have any of those other parameters or boundaries in terms of technology or a company directing what they wanted us to focus on, I could go in there and think about what I actually wanted the hackathon to achieve personally. And for me, when I'm working on projects, I usually want them to be impactful, and I want them to try and improve the world in some way, whether it be big or small.
And I thought if this is something that the hackathon can focus on, then other people can also make an impact themselves. And maybe that will also help them continue to do impactful projects further down the line and perhaps get into a more social good mindset.
So for me, the social good aspect is such an important feature. I think you can really have a ripple effect every time that you're doing a social good project. And it is something that people in South Korea, in particular, don't necessarily think about when they're making a project. They're often thinking about, how can we make something to win?
So I really think it's something that is so value and important to do, especially for a hackathon. It's very low stakes, but it can plant this seed in the back of your mind, and you can go anywhere with that.
Heidi: I love it. I love that. I think that's amazing. And so maybe when you sort of reflect back on the work that you've done with this hackathon, what are you most proud of that has come out of it?
Josie: So I am probably most proud of, in addition to the social impact that comes from these projects, it is how participants respond to it after the fact, even... It's been two years since the first one. And I will still have people who attended the first one and tell me how it sort of changed their view of tech, or it changed their view of their career path because they realized that they could build their skills quickly, they could build a project quickly, they could collaborate with strangers and still build something successfully. And ultimately, they leave this experience with a lot of really positive associations between what they're working on and themselves.
So, especially people will tell me, oh, that was my first hackathon. I got so much confidence from it, and then I ended up doing this and that and that. And that is really, really fun to hear. I think a lot of people feel afraid to join these kinds of events for all kinds of reasons, but usually they think I'm too junior or I'm not good enough. And the answer, everyone is different. But ultimately, a hackathon is to just try and see before you denounce yourself as a failure. You should at least try first, and then you might be surprised at what you find. Even if you don't win, at least you can learn some new skills and maybe make some new friends.
Heidi: I love that. I love that. I have definitely always thought of hackathons as being super intimidating. So I love that you have made it very welcoming. Have a diverse group coming. You've even, sounds like you've even opened it up to folks who haven't necessarily coded a ton before and whatnot. So I love that and I love that as an interesting stepping point for folks to maybe find their path or find their passion in tech, which is really, really cool. So congratulations. That's so neat.
Switching gears a little bit. You are working on so much, so I feel like I shouldn't even ask this question. You have so many things going on, but what is something that you're working on right now?
Josie: Yeah, I'm always working on quite a few different things. One of the things that I'm working on right now is a project that is... I'm open-sourcing it with a non-commercial license so that anyone around the world can use it.
But it's basically something like [Too] Good To Go where you can, or Craigslist, you can upload items and other people can take them for free, basically. And this is not a new concept in the world; this is a really common startup idea, I guess.
But it's quite rare for this kind of project to be open source. It's rare to see a production-like app that you can see the whole structure of the app. And I think for me, when I was trying to learn how to create apps, it was something that I did fully alone. I didn't know anyone else who made React Native apps.
I didn't have anyone else to ask. And it was really a struggle.
So now we're a couple years later and I'm like, I really want to do this to help other people. And I do get asked, how can I do this? How did you learn how to do this? And I think by making this project and kind of releasing it to the world, it's something that people can use as a reference. They can see all kinds of elements from it. They can pick and choose the things that they need, but at least they can see, oh, this is what this kind of app should look like in my code, in the structuring and perhaps even the design, things like that. It's something that is another way for me to kind of give back.
And perhaps if people do take the project as it is, they can upload it to the app store, and they can make it for their local community, like their university or their high school, or something like that. And they can make their own little community where people can recycle and upcycle products that they have. So yeah, it's something that I've really enjoyed working on recently and trying to stretch my wings design-wise. I went in a completely different direction from the designs that I'm used to doing. So I've had fun with it and I'm really hoping that it's going to help some people struggle a bit less with making apps.
Heidi: I love that. That is so cool. Yeah, I think that's amazing. And honestly, so many endless ways that you have had an impact on your community and that you give back. It's just super impressive, and just want to say thank you on behalf of everyone. That's just incredible. It sounds like you have endless time to do all of this, which is [cross-talk]
Josie: I would say, actually, the most surprising thing that people learn about me is I usually sleep nine or 10 hours a night.
Heidi: Oh my gosh, I can't believe how you fit it all in. That's incredible. You must have some sort of time warp going on. That's incredible. That's awesome.
Well, maybe just one more question, and then we'll go to a set of questions to wrap up. But it seems like you can do anything, but I imagine at some point, there have been some sort of obstacles or challenges in your life. Is there one that you feel like you've had to overcome, and how did you overcome it?
Josie: Absolutely, yes. So in terms of obstacles, there's always so many to pick and choose from, but I would say I probably would've become a developer sooner if I hadn't been so afraid. I was afraid of failing. I was afraid of getting stuck at hard points. I was afraid of coding being mostly maths, and it was something that I really had to move past.
I was so scared that I would somehow break the computer or break the browser, and I had to learn that it's not so easy to do that. And I had to trust that whatever tutorials I was following were not going to set my computer on fire, and it would probably be okay. And it took a while for me to build that confidence in myself and to kind of get over that fear. I think that's why it took me so long from that first case of being interested in coding to actually doing it a lot more.
Heidi: That's amazing. Well, thank you for persevering because, like I said, I think your impact now is way beyond just sort of your coding job and whatnot, which I absolutely love.
Alright, so we'll flip to a couple of wrap-up questions. What is a piece of advice you would give to your younger self?
Josie: I think there's lots of advice I would've given to my younger self. One thing that I often think of, and it's a bit absurd, when I was about 13 or 14, I was often on the internet and I'd heard about this thing called Bitcoin and I had tried to get some Bitcoin, but I couldn't figure out how to make a Bitcoin wallet and I searched online and the steps were a bit too complicated and I just gave up.
Obviously, that changed the trajectory of my life, but the really important lesson there for me was I shouldn't give up on things just because there's too many steps involved or because it seems too hard and I didn't understand how to do it. I need to always keep going, even when I get stuck, find another resource. Don't let opportunities slide by just because you think it's slightly too hard or you're really lost. There will be another way. There's always another way to do something.
Heidi: I love that. That is such an amazing example of a potentially missed opportunity, and I hear you. I definitely have some of those in my life. That's awesome.
Alright, and so just two more questions. One, who is someone you look up to in the industry? Is there a career story that you would love to hear on a future podcast?
Josie: Yes. So at Technica 2024, I saw a keynote speech from Eriol Fox, who is someone that I really, really admire from that keynote speech. And they're doing some amazing work at Superbloom, and I think that their story is really interesting, and also the work that they're doing is absolutely essential to the world that we're living in right now. So I would love if you're able to get them on the podcast,
Heidi: Awesome, we will look for them and try to figure out how to get them on. That would be fantastic. Thanks for the recommendation. And then just last opportunity, anything that you would like to spotlight or highlight on the show?
Josie: I think, as I mentioned, I'm working on this open source project, so if anyone would like to either use it as a reference or if they would like to collaborate on it, that would be really amazing.
People can find it very easily if they go to my GitHub page. My GitHub is github.com/josdaw, which is J-O-S-D-A-W. And yeah, you can see the project pinned on there, and people can feel free to reach out to me as well on LinkedIn or anywhere else you can find me.
I'm usually open to helping people, as you can imagine, and I do a little bit of mentoring for people who are more junior. Usually, if I can find a way to help someone, I usually will. So please, for anyone, feel free to reach out.
Heidi: Awesome. Thank you so much, Josie. It's been such a pleasure to hear your story and learn more about all the impactful things that you're doing. It's just incredible. And honestly, like I said, I don't know how you find all the time, but keep it up, and if there's anything we can do to ever support you further, let us know. But thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure today.
Josie: Thank you as well.
Karen: Engineer Your Career is produced by WEST, a learning community that empowers women technologists through mentorship. Special thanks to our audio production team, Heidi Williams, Amanda Beaty, and yours truly, Karen Ko.
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