Thriving as an Engineering Manager with Pinar Ozlen (Podcast & Transcript)

“I try not to lead, but I try to support the team so that they lead and we all align on what's the most impactful and important thing to do, but then giving the people the opportunity to sort of show what they can do.” - Pinar Ozlen

Pinar Ozlen is an Engineering Manager at Airbnb based in Paris, France. Before Airbnb, she served as an Engineering Manager at Whatsapp, and worked on Google Maps and Search as an engineer with Google.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How she gained visibility in large organizations

• Her transition from "What am I building" to "Who am I working with"

• Defining a leadership style that's complementary to your personality

• Tips for overcoming imposter syndrome

• The importance of setting boundaries and saying "No"

Transcript has been edited for clarity.

Karen Ko: Hey there. Welcome to Engineer Your Career, a podcast brought to you by WEST, a learning community, empowering women technologists through mentorship. Join us as we hear from inspiring women tech leaders who are challenging stereotypes and paving the way for future generations. We hope their career journeys inspire you with new ideas to engineer your career. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to our latest episode of Engineer Your Career. I'm Karen.

Heidi Williams: And I'm Heidi.

Karen: And we're excited to introduce our guest, Pinar Ozlen, who recently moved from London to Paris to take on an engineering manager role over at Airbnb.

To get us started, can you please share a little bit about your career journey and how you got to where you are today?

Pinar Ozlen: Probably better to start from the beginning, but originally from Turkey. Born there. Grew up there, lived there up until the end of high school, and then I went to uni in US, so I spent almost four years in the US studying.

I did an internship with Google in Seattle, and on my junior year, it was the Google Maps team. It was an amazing project. It was sort of this team who was working on rendering with the Google Maps. I could do lots of research or experimental things, so I really loved the team. And then the plan was to go back to that team as a full-time engineer, but I sort of preferred to be a bit closer to home, so I asked.... Something went wrong with my visa. The whole process was extended, so I used that as a way to ask, like, hey, can I actually join in London?

So we found a team in London and I moved to London, started working on Android, which is where I spent the first, I think four to five years of my time in Google. And then I moved to search, and building search experiences for new-to-internet users. Amazing team. I loved working on that project.

And after that, I almost joined Grammarly, and that didn't work out. Again, visa reasons, and joined WhatsApp, similar product area. I was working on building experiences on WhatsApp natively for emerging markets. We focused a lot on India, so lots of commonalities between new-to-internet users, how can we make things more simple, but also help them get things done?

We launched a big project, and it sort of coincided with the time that COVID was coming to an end. So I was like, okay, this is the time. If I want to travel, it's not going to get any better than this. So I left WhatsApp and spent a year sort of traveling, being with family. It was just amazing, and as I hit one year, I sort of, again, I found this great opportunity in Airbnb, working on a product that I was very excited about. So that's how I ended up here.

Karen: Wow, what a journey it's been so far. I'm curious, do you remember what little Pinar wanted to be when she grew up?

Pinar: I can't really remember. I think I remember this from the stories that were told to me, but I think the biggest one, the most consistent one, was being an author because my aunt was an author, and then we were spending a lot of time with her. She would pick us up from preschool, we would go to lunch. So I think that part of my childhood was very much influenced by her.

Karen: So cute. I wanted to be an astronaut for some reason or another, and then I realized I was awful at math.

Pinar: I've never written anything, by the way. This wasn't coming from a realistic place, either. [laughter]

Karen: Well, who knows? You might still become an author in your future. How did you first get into programming?

Pinar: I'm not sure it was a very conscious decision. That being said, my mom was working as a computer scientist. She had a math background, and my sister also studied computer science, but I'd never written code until I started uni 101 programming class. I'd never written code before that.

My mom used to leave us with some writings on how to actually play games on the computer when she's away, et cetera, as I was a kid. But that was mostly it. So, how it works in Turkey is that at the end of high school, you entered one big exam, and then depending on your score on that exam, you get into a college and a sort of a major within that college. Every major within every college has different scores and things that you have to hit.

I was good at math, but I also liked art. So in Turkey, I entered this architecture school, so the plan was to go study architecture, but I also got into computer science in US. And I think some of the reasons that I applied was that, I don't know if you remember this, but there was this book called The Last Lecture by Randy Pausch, and I think I was very much influenced by that book, and he talks about his time in Disney building these experiences, lots of storytelling interestingly, and building these worlds, which was fascinating to me.

So I was like, oh, I kind of want to do that as well. So that's sort of how I applied. Again, I was good at math, so it sort of made sense in a way as well, but I didn't have any idea if I would actually like it or not.

Karen: That's so cool that your love of math and art eventually brought you to building worlds through engineering. Is there anything that you learned early on that you still find valuable today?

Pinar: I think it's probably around people. As I was first starting to work on, I mean starting my career basically, it was more around products. What will I build, what exactly will I do? And it was a bit less about who would I be working with. I don't know, it just seems so weird now, but it wasn't top of mind for me at that time, and very quickly I learned that it makes a huge difference, and it influenced a lot of the decisions that I have made in my career, more towards the end of it. But I truly felt a difference depending on the team that I was working with, the people that I'm working with, because we end up spending so much time with that group.

Karen: I totally agree. Finding a team you have synergy with is so important.

So, since we've been talking about your earlier work experiences, what is a piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

Pinar: Probably to take a bit more risk. Not even risk, but maybe to try more things. I think there were lots and lots of opportunities in Google where I passed on because I was relatively happy with what I was doing. Interested, maybe excited, but I think I also lost out on a lot of different experiences.

Like you could go and be [inaudible] for a couple of months or go and work for an NGO for a couple of months, all of those things. I think I could have probably fitted into my seven or eight years in Google. I've done some, I've taken on some. I've tried being a PM and then came back, et cetera, but I think there was more that I could have tried and taken advantage of.

Karen: Speaking of taking risks and trying new things, I feel like it takes a lot of courage to leave a stable job in this current market and to take time to travel. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Pinar: I think it was just a matter of there never being a good time. When I was leaving Google as well, that was the thing like, oh, maybe I could travel, but then it was COVID. There were new cases springing up, et cetera. So I was like, okay, not a good time. I should not do this.

And then a year later, I think COVID was going down, but the market was going bad. I'm like, okay, there'll always be something. If not that, there'll be something at work. Maybe we wouldn't have wrapped up a project by the time I leave, because in this one, we wrapped up the project. I stayed until we found another engineering manager to take the team, et cetera, so everything was aligned. I was like, okay, I have to give at some point. So a bit of bravery, a bit of sort of not thinking about it. I don't know.

Heidi: That's interesting, too. I mean, I think everyone, when they think about leaving a job, feels a responsibility to their team, but as you mentioned, as a manager, it feels not just the project but the people in their careers, and that feels like another layer of responsibility that is hard and maybe just.... I've heard so many women talk about, I don't want to leave my team, I want to leave them in a good place. I want to make sure they're in good hands, and often in bad situations, stay longer than they should, and maybe to the point of where they don't have leverage anyway for their teams.

Anyway, I think it is an interesting thing that I think can hold people back, feeling that extra responsibility as a manager, but amazing that you found a way to sort of work it through.

Pinar: I mean, I also had a really good manager, very supportive, who gave me the flexibility and the time. So it wasn't just me, it was just the team as well, and the people.

Heidi: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah.

Karen: Switching gears a little bit, what have been some of the highlights in your career?

Pinar: I'm not sure if this is a very exciting answer, but it's probably the people that I've met and the people that I've connected with.

Obviously, I love building some of the things that we have built. I love seeing people using the products that we have built, being in research trips, et cetera. But in the end, I think what sticks with me the most is the friendships that I've made, the things that I've learned from people, and just growing both technically, but also as a human being.

Karen: Well, it sounds like becoming an engineering manager was the right path for you. I'm curious, have there been any obstacles in your journey that you're open to sharing about?

Pinar: It was probably.... I don't know if I [inaudible], but I think it's the imposter syndrome is a real thing and it just keeps popping up. Again, there were phases where I overcome it. There are phases where I still feel it.

Heidi: Is there something that you feel like you do or something that happens that helps you get out of imposter syndrome mode and into feeling confident again? Or is it just situational, or have you found a trick to get yourself out of it?

Pinar: It just changes a lot. I think I'm very sort of sensitive to other people's feedback, and just not even the feedback. It doesn't have to be verbal, but understanding what's working and what's not working. So it's very situational.

I mean, it obviously helps that people are happy, and I tend to ask anyway how things are going, et cetera. So it improves if my team is doing well. If they're not doing well, it goes back and forth. And I think there are phases when I've had it, when it just made no sense. Everything was going good, but we weren't able to align on something that I would get very upset and I'm like, am I doing this well enough? Can I do more?

And it's just checking in with other people around, saying, okay, what can we do, et cetera. Again, it's trying to do your best. Doesn't always help, but yeah, I'm not sure. I don't have a perfect answer yet.

Heidi: Yeah. But it does feel like it goes hand-in-hand that building relationships and having a network of people around you that are supportive and being able to check in and sort of have that semi vulnerable conversation of, I'm going to ask you this question if I'm doing okay, and I really, really hope you say yes, but maybe you're going to say no. So yeah, amazing that it kind of all works together, that your relationships can really help you sort of overcome those moments. So thank you for sharing that.

Karen: What has the role of mentorship, sponsorship, or networking played in your career?

Pinar: I think sponsorship worked wonders, honestly. If you have someone who's advocating for you, that makes a huge difference, especially in—I've always been in big organizations, but in big organizations I feel like it does make a difference.

And mentorship, I found it very helpful because I usually had it with someone who's not from my organization, who can have an objective set of eyes and point things out, and that helps with the imposter syndrome as well. No, it's not you, it's the project or whatever else. And sometimes it's me, and that's also fine, but it's just those second set of eyes usually helps me get a bit of perspective

Karen: For sure. I definitely appreciate having a mentor who can provide that outside perspective. Having worked at such large companies like Google, WhatsApp, and now Airbnb, how have you gained visibility or found sponsors at such large organizations?

Pinar: I think I've never found that. I think that it was always an existing relationship that sort of evolved in that way. So they got to know me, they got to know the work that I was doing. I think it was just a collaboration is how it started, and then it sort of evolved into that.

Karen: Gotcha. So it sounds like finding sponsors for you has been a bit more of an organic process. Are there any that come to mind right now?

Pinar: The first one was a tech lead that I've had. Someone who just, I didn't even realize it at the time, but carved out the space for me to learn, gave me impactful work, brought visibility to my work, connected me with other teams, and then we had a partner team at the same time.

This was the same project who really advocated for my involvement on the project, did all the similar things that my TL was doing. This was cross-time zone collaboration as well. So it had lots of different elements. So that team and my TL were the best ones.

Then I also had a couple of managers who could have been champions, but I think we had [inaudible] before they could become champions, which is kind of unfortunate.

Karen: I was curious to hear more about your IC journey moving into management and how your time as an IC has influenced the way that you manage

Pinar: It is an interesting one. So, for my transition to management, I think it was very opportunistic at the time. My then-manager was leaving, and he was changing teams, and he was like, Hey, do you want to be it? I'm like, okay, sure. Because I've never done it. It seemed interesting. I was sort of, again, in that stage where I was getting a bit comfortable doing what I was doing, and I wasn't sure if I was learning a lot. I was like, okay, right, I'll do it, but no one tells you what to do when you first become a manager. They're like, you're it. And then he left.

Then I was like, okay, I'll carry on doing what he's doing. But it takes time to actually, I mean, yes, there are trainings. I think it happens over the course, not necessarily at the point where you become a manager, so you do learn a lot from other people and trainings, et cetera, but it's also sort of spending time within that position that gives you some of the insights.

So I would say it was actually quite challenging in the first half, maybe, or year. Just trying to understand, what are the right things to do, what are the right ways to build relationships? And I think because it was a team that I used to be an IC, it made things a bit hardish because I could go and do things by myself. So you have, when you find it hard to delegate, you can get away with not doing it because you can just go in and do it.

Whereas if you are joining a team where you don't know the context or haven't been an IC for a long time, in that scope, you have to delegate, which is the thing that I think helps you grow and scale and do all the right things.

So in that way, I think it was challenging trying to sort of understand how to delegate work, how to make sure that people are doing the best work that they could do, doing the work that they enjoy doing.

Providing feedback, I think, was a big thing because I mean, there's a whole structure around it, but I don't think you learn it within that structure until you have to actually provide it, and then it becomes a responsibility provided. Whereas as an IC, you can sort of like, yes, we'll do the performance reviews, et cetera, but you can sort of get away with not doing it unless you're super interested.

Karen: Did you find the transition from working on code to building relationships with people to be a pretty seamless experience, or was it a bit of a struggle?

Pinar: Oh, I loved it. That was the part I loved. That was one of the reasons why I was more attracted to maybe engineering manager or product manager as well, because I loved working with people.

But I think I really struggled when I didn't understand the rationale behind doing something. And when you're a manager or a product manager, people have to give you that rationale because you're sort of protecting a bit of the resources. So you're much more involved in why we are doing things, how we are doing things, as well, along with your team.

But that as well, I think building the relationship with the people is the most important part. And that part I just love. And that came a bit more organically, I think.

Heidi: You've actually now been a manager at three different companies that I imagine have pretty different cultures, different value, different priorities, and whatnot. How much do you think engineering management has been the same at each of those versus how have you had to either adapt or learn new skills as a people manager? How different, actually, has engineering management been at each of the companies?

Pinar: I think it's been quite similar for me because for me, it's always been about people and how you treat people and how you bring the best out of the people, and then you have to adapt it to the company structures, priorities, et cetera.

But I think it's just a bit of maybe storytelling in a way, and that you can sort of structure things in a way that actually sort of builds up to that. But in the essentials, it's just people. So in that way, it was similar.

Heidi: So you mentioned when we were prepping for the call that you have your own sort of personal style of how you like to work and how you approach things, and it's sort of both something you have organically developed over your career, but also is based on your team and how do they like to work and what's their style.

So I'm curious, could you start by just describing what is your style and how do you like to work? And then maybe tell me a little bit about how the team influences that.

Pinar: Yeah, I can. I will do my best. I'll try because I don't know if it's very structured because it's so fluid, depending on the team, who's on the team who we're working with. And a lot of the situations. Sometimes it's a bit more chaotic because of the nature of the project. Sometimes it's a bit more stable and structured, and it all depends on the context.

But maybe fluidity and the flexibility is a big part of it, but it's mostly on understanding what the people in the team love doing and hate doing, and are okay doing. And then just trying to structure the work that we have accordingly, such that people can do the work that they love the most. For most of the time. It's obviously not always possible. It's not perfect, but just even showing that you are trying to optimize for that, I think, makes a difference.

And then on the flip side of it, obviously, is that making sure that we are doing impactful work and we are doing the right kind of work, and that requires a lot of partnership with your product manager, designer, leadership, which is the slightly separate side of it.

And then I think maybe the third bucket is just being very open to feedback, but also being very open to building the team that is open to providing and taking feedback. And I think that helps the most because it helps you shape the team, build the culture a bit more organically, maybe than just setting very strict guidelines. I'm not sure if that answers that question, but [crosstalk]

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's very interesting for sure. And it sounds a lot that the dynamic of the team influences how you lead things and all of that. Do you find that you also have, even within a role that you adapt between what your team needs from you, and then you were saying you have a lot of cross-functional partners or peers or maybe leadership. Do you find that you also have to flex between how you show up for leadership or versus your peers versus your team?

Pinar: Yeah, I think so. One thing I would say is that you were saying leading, I guess one of the things that I try doing is I try not to lead, but I try to support the team so that they lead and we all align on what's the most impactful and important thing to do, but then giving the people the opportunity to sort of show what they can do.

I don't have to lead for the whole team. I had the opportunity to work with great teams and great people who can do a lot of things. So it's about sort of giving them the opportunity to lead their own work and show up for the leadership, explain their work, et cetera.

So again, on that context, it depends on where my team is at. Sometimes I have to show up and lead and show up for leadership and present what my team is working on. But some other times it's just sort of pushing people on so that they can do it themselves.

Heidi: I love that. Yeah, that's fantastic.

Karen: Love it. And what would you say has been the most difficult part of being a people manager for you?

Pinar: Probably that responsibility that comes with now you're responsible for the whole team's work, and sometimes, I mean, most of the time you can't control it, right?

You'll provide the feedback, do your best, but in the end, your work depends on other people's work. And then that was a very hard adjustment, so that was one.

The other one is trying not to disappoint people, or the emotional load I get from disappointing people. For different reasons. It's not personal, but because of the company, because of the project, things evolve, things change. I think that is still a very tough one for me to deal with.

Karen: Yeah. How do you go about trying to alleviate some of that emotional load?

Pinar: Nothing too crazy, but having the work-life balance, workouts, et cetera, just trying to separate out and knowing that I'm doing my best to do right by my team.

Karen: I agree. Finding a good balance for yourself is so important for your mental health. I'm curious, do you identify more as an introvert or an extrovert?

Pinar: Introvert.

Karen: Introvert. How do you feel that has influenced the way that you lead?

Pinar: I would like to think that it influenced it in a good way because it helps me give more opportunities to others, and that's what I enjoy doing as a manager, but there's probably pros and cons to it.

Karen: I can definitely see how that creates space for others to step up as leaders as well.

Heidi: Maybe one more question just about that. I know for introverts—or I've heard for introverts—that being around people can actually be really exhausting. If that's true for you, is there something you do to sort of refresh and renew your energy at the end of the day or the week?

Pinar: I think it depends. One part is, I really enjoy being with people, but there are ways of being with people. I think some of them become a bit more hard for me. I don't know a full day in meetings is a bit harder than casually being in the office, but with people, but a bit more social way. So it just depends on how I'm interacting with people and just working out, having a bit of just walking home, maybe even if it's an hour walk, those kinds of things help a lot to rewind.

Karen: Something I've heard for Eng managers is the overload of their calendars with meetings and feeling like they don't have enough time to do the work that they actually needed to do. And I'm curious how you've been able to balance that for yourself.

Pinar: I just say no. I learned saying no, and I think, very rarely for my team or almost never, if it's my team, it's always a yes, but I just carve out the time, put calendar blocks just to do the work that I really have to do. Otherwise, I make the time for others, obviously.

Karen: Was it hard to learn how to set boundaries?

Pinar: Yes. And I think it's a new challenge every single time, every single company, understanding the dynamics, what you can say no to, what you have to say yes to.

Heidi: You've now become a manager twice at a new company. How do you structure your first—now you've just finished your first four months at Airbnb. How do you ramp up? What's your onboarding plan for becoming a manager at a new company?

Pinar: I think it's just a lot of listening, just understanding how people feel, trying to understand why people feel that way, and then also trying to understand the business and why the business is structured in the way that it is, just so that you can understand what things are working and what things are not working, and then you move towards, okay, should we change some of these things? But I think a lot of the companies are different in the ways that they make decisions and how things are structured, so just understanding the rationale and just learning from people is the first stage.

Heidi: I love that, and I like that you touched on understanding the business and how it's structured, and I find that that's a critical piece about being a good manager or director, VP, whatever it is, and I think it's something a lot of engineers may not think about as they're moving into a management role. That context within which you're working and within which decisions are being made is so important, and it's just neat to go understand that side of it so that things make a lot more sense, I guess, if you dig in on that side.

Karen: What's your favorite way of learning when you're trying to grow as a people manager?

Pinar: I think from other people, that's how I learn, by seeing, and I just learn from other people's experience. So I think I learn the best when there are people around me who are doing things in different ways, and I can sort of observe how that works out.

Heidi: Do you ever reach out to folks for... I don't know... we sometimes call it micro mentorship, but maybe just a one-hour coffee chat to kind of pick their brains about things. Is that something you've done to kind of learn more directly?

Pinar: Yeah. I had mentors who helped me in certain ways. I had other managers. I actually learned a lot from managers who have a complete—where I thought we have very different styles, and like, okay, I actually see how that's working in that way. I think that usually gives me the most interesting bits of how you can do things differently and how they work out.

Karen: What I've been hearing you say throughout the podcast is that you want to continue learning when you're in your different roles, and that when you start getting comfortable that that's when you start looking for new opportunities. I'm curious about what your North Star, or if there's a particular.... What you see yourself doing five to 10 years from now?

Pinar: That's the question I fail all the time. I've never had an answer to that. I think for me it's more about trying, seeing, and then changing, which is what I was saying to my younger self as well. I would've said do that much. So I don't know. But I love working with people. I love building things. So I think we'll see in a while.

Heidi: Maybe in five to 10 years, you'll write a book about your experiences and become an [crosstalk]

Karen: Yes. Yes.

Pinar: Who knows. Who knows.

Karen: Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you for sharing about your career journey so far. We so appreciate your insights on management, taking risks, and following your heart. Thanks for joining us on the podcast, Pinar.

Heidi: Thank you so much, Pinar. It was awesome.

Pinar: Thanks for having me.

Karen: And that wraps up another great episode of Engineer Your Career, brought to you by WEST.

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